17:07:51 <regXboi> #startmeeting
17:07:51 <odl_meetbot> Meeting started Fri Apr 18 17:07:51 2014 UTC.  The chair is regXboi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:07:51 <odl_meetbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
17:07:56 <regXboi> #chair alagalah
17:07:56 <odl_meetbot> Current chairs: alagalah regXboi
17:08:45 <regXboi> #topic what has changed between 0.95 and 0.96?
17:08:51 <regXboi> #info minor changes
17:09:51 <regXboi> #link https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0Pf6vxIzl4lX3J6cDBQZ3ZJZms/edit
17:10:01 <regXboi> #info the above is the 0.96 model
17:12:33 <regXboi> #info labels have now been subdivided into roles, capabilities, conditions, and qualities
17:12:47 <regXboi> #info clauses have also been added
17:14:08 <regXboi> #info groups select contracts via selectors (or name releationships).  A selector is formula on the contract's qualities
17:14:10 <alagalah> jmedved: Can you go on mute, mate, you are taking over the screen with your typing :)
17:14:28 <regXboi> um, that may be me scribing the meeting
17:14:52 <s3wong> alagalah: although you can click on dvorkinista and the big screen will be fixed on Mike
17:15:12 <s3wong> regardless of who is speaking
17:15:21 <regXboi> #info question from Jan: what does target?
17:15:48 <regXboi> #info mike says that the target is how the contract presents itself
17:17:03 <dconde> #info is this same as label we had?
17:17:22 <regXboi> #info see above .... labels have been subdivided statement...
17:18:58 <dconde> #info understdood
17:21:40 <regXboi> #info regXboi asks for the use case for a contract presenting multiple targets
17:22:03 <regXboi> #info dvokinista and alagalah say the use case is allowing different users to have different selectors for the same contract
17:22:19 <regXboi> #info regXboi says he'll think about it and scream if it doesn't make sense
17:22:33 * alagalah is scared
17:22:41 <regXboi> anybody else want to help scribe so I can talk more?
17:22:55 <alagalah> #info alagalah taking over scribing
17:23:13 <alagalah> regXboi: talk away, boss
17:23:15 <regXboi> #info jmedved continues to ask why I would need separate targets
17:23:56 <regXboi> #info dvorkinista says think of presenting targets for development versus test?
17:24:09 <alagalah> regXboi: Let me know when you want me to take over
17:24:18 <regXboi> jump in anytime
17:24:25 <regXboi> I'm used to multiple scribes
17:25:58 <alagalah> #info jmedved was concerned the selector with multiple targets modifying the contract. dvorkinista pointed out this doesn't change anything in the contract, its a way of selecting the contract
17:26:43 <alagalah> #info regXboi made an analogy of UNIX file systems. The contract is the file, the selector and targets are logical links, a way to traverse to the file
17:27:01 <alagalah> #info dvorkinista pointed out its a lot of like labels in gmail
17:28:38 <alagalah> #info Earlier on, dvorkinista pointed out that labels have subsets, Roles, Capabilities, Conditions and Qualities (missed that earlier)
17:28:56 <regXboi> #info s3wong asks if this makes the prior label scheme less flexible
17:29:09 <alagalah> #info dvorkinista said that 0.95 -> 0.96 is some renaming of things to make them clearer (ie the sub-groups above of labels)
17:29:10 <regXboi> #info dvorkinista says they are equivalent
17:29:33 <regXboi> who is speaking?
17:29:50 <s3wong> readams?
17:29:55 <mickey_spiegel> yes
17:29:57 <alagalah> #info readams asked a question that I couldn't pick up
17:29:59 <readams> yes
17:30:17 <alagalah> readams: please #info your question
17:33:21 <readams> #info Why would you want to selectively match against targets that are being *provided* as opposed to consumed
17:34:09 <regXboi> #info mickey_spiegel says we have to remember what provides and consumes means
17:34:32 <regXboi> #info so that we can add new contracts without disturbing existing contracts
17:35:52 <alagalah> #info readams wonders why we want this particular semantic feature (multiple contracts, multiple targets)
17:36:09 <mickey_spiegel> #info Example: Existing contract for http and https, now add another protocol that requires going through another appliance
17:36:26 <alagalah> #info dvorkinista says it allows for provision of services and combination of services qithout wondering how contracts are structured
17:36:28 <mickey_spiegel> #info Now add another contract with additional qualifier, without disrupting others
17:36:32 <mickey_spiegel> #info Service does not even need to know you are going through another appliance
17:37:57 <alagalah> #info jmedved wants use case/concrete examples
17:38:23 <alagalah> #info dvorkinista using DB cluster as an example. Shows a target for anything that wants to consume the database
17:38:47 <alagalah> #info alagalah is going to find a way to record video of whiteboard sessions. Cos scribing this is nigh on impossible
17:39:19 <s3wong> alagalah: I believe ChrisPriceAB has Google Capture turned on
17:39:43 <alagalah> s3wong: Capture only takes a screenshot
17:39:45 <ChrisPriceAB> is it running?  OK I'll try turn it off.  I was pushing buttons
17:40:00 <alagalah> s3wong: I'm pretty sure it only takes a screen shot
17:40:13 <s3wong> alagalah: OK - not sure
17:40:31 <alagalah> s3wong: google on air is the only way I know to record hangouts
17:40:43 <ChrisPriceAB> (new to hang-outs)
17:41:07 * s3wong never uses any of the Google apps next to Hangout screen
17:41:09 <alagalah> #info Discussion is around backup providers
17:41:31 <regXboi> alagalah: third party capture software?
17:41:56 <alagalah> regXboi: mebbe or google on air
17:41:58 <ChrisPriceAB> Back-up providers is a usecase to demonstrate the need for the selector concept
17:42:12 <regXboi> alagalah: see off-line link
17:42:20 <alagalah> ChrisPriceAB: Want to #info that,, go for it
17:42:36 <ChrisPriceAB> #info Back-up providers is a usecase to demonstrate the need for the selector concept
17:43:38 <alagalah> #info dvorkinista says basic contract is to provide a contract based on a query.
17:43:52 <alagalah> #info dvorkinista says basic concept is to provide a contract based on a query.
17:44:14 <alagalah> #info missed readams response
17:45:43 <alagalah> #info regXboi asks how two contracts with same set of labels get resolved ?
17:46:19 <alagalah> #info dvorkinista points out that target is only used for selection. It's a way of selecting multiple contracts
17:46:56 <alagalah> #info regXboi since targets are only used for selection, then there needs to be a discussion on contract conflict resolution
17:47:28 <alagalah> #info dvorkinista agreed
17:48:03 <alagalah> #info ChrisPriceAB wanted to know if you should have a more specific query mechanism
17:48:18 <alagalah> #info ChrisPriceAB in a way to avoid handling conflict resolution
17:48:32 <alagalah> #info dvorkinista agrees conflict resolution is important.
17:50:02 <alagalah> jmedved: I had some background noise (dinner delivered) .. can you #info your question please ?
17:50:19 <regXboi> #info jmedved buids on regXboi's question about resolution at the contract level or something else
17:50:35 <regXboi> #info dvorkinista says its at the rules level and not the contract level
17:50:58 <alagalah> regXboi: Did you get mickey_spiegel point? I have noise here
17:51:28 <regXboi> #info mickey_spiegel says at the end of the day, we are sending packets and rules will be selected based on the information in the packet
17:51:39 <regXboi> #info note: that can include prior state
17:51:49 <alagalah> regXboi: and wiener schnitzel ... benefit of Zurich
17:51:50 <regXboi> #info er... that last is my editorial note
17:51:56 <mickey_spiegel> #info in data plane, you determine contract based on source and destination addresses
17:52:06 <regXboi> wienerschnitzel... nice!
17:52:14 <alagalah> Can someone else take over scribing?
17:52:15 <mickey_spiegel> #info Anywhere where you do enforcement in the data plane, have to come up with the same answer for conflict resolution, for the same pair of source and destination addresses
17:52:18 <regXboi> got it
17:52:19 <alagalah> For last 10min ?
17:52:22 <alagalah> I need to eat
17:52:27 <regXboi> go eat - I'm on it
17:53:04 <alagalah> I'm eating at my tiny desk at the Radisson Zurich
17:53:04 <regXboi> alagalah: I'll send you the minutes link separately when I end the meeting
17:53:09 <alagalah> I'm here
17:53:15 <alagalah> I'm just knife and forking
17:53:30 <regXboi> better than me... lunch won't be for another 90 minutes it looks like
17:53:40 <regXboi> and will be continental then (i.e. cheese and crackers) :(
17:53:46 <alagalah> noes
17:53:50 <alagalah> badz
17:54:13 <regXboi> these time slots are lunching time in middle of country, but so be it
17:56:04 <alagalah> regXboi: sorry mate
17:57:19 <alagalah> #endmeeting